Stella Tan
Do you remember what your last day of school was like?
Gulamiz
Actually, I remember it very clearly. It was— I cannot tell you how much I miss high school and how much I miss the past Afghanistan and Kabul that we had. That day, like, everything was very, very exciting, because they had a special ceremony for us.
So it was a goodbye party for all the graduates, and we were all dressed up with our clothes, so it was like a suit. Like, we really looked great. Like, whenever I have the photos of that day, I still see myself sitting on the chair with my diploma in my hand, looking super, super proud.
Stella Tan
Oh, wow.
[Music]
Gulamiz
Even now, when I think of that day, my heart is, like, feeling a deep pain, because I'm not sure that I can feel that excitement ever, and ever again. And I know that the girls in my school, they are— they also miss that day very, very badly.
Sabrina Tavernise
From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernise. This is The Daily. It's been seven months since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan and forced millions of women, who were in schools or the workforce, back into their homes.
Throughout that time, my colleagues, Lynsea Garrison and Stella Tan, have been talking to girls from around the country about how their lives have changed and what kind of future they now face in Afghanistan. It's Friday, March 25.
[Phone Ringing]
Lynsea Garrison
Hello?
Fatima
Hello? Is this Lynsea Garrison?
Lynsea Garrison
Hi! Fatima! Nice to hear your voice.
Fatima
Thank you. I'm also so happy to be talking to you.
Lynsea Garrison
How are you today?
Fatima
Mm, I'm great. How about you?
Lynsea Garrison
I'm good. Thank you so much. Well, I would just love to get to know you, just anything you're able to tell me about yourself.
Fatima
OK. So—
Muneera
OK, should I start now?
Lynsea Garrison
Yeah.
Muneera
OK, my name is Muneera. I am a student in Kabul University, Faculty of Fine Art.
Gulamiz
So this is GulAmiz. I'm now 19 years old, and I am a high school graduate this year.
Mariam
OK. This is Mariam. Actually, I was studying business administration in one of private universities.
Fatima
You know my name, and I am 18 years old. Actually, I graduated from high school in 2021 at the end of March.
Lynsea Garrison
Congratulations.
Fatima
Thank you.
Lynsea Garrison
Can you tell me a little bit about what school was like for you?
F
I was in an international school, and I loved the school.
And first, when I entered my school, it was like heaven, actually. It had a projector, and also computer lab, physics lab, chemistry lab. We have teachers and classmates. We are so kind with each other.
Sonya
We learn that, what's the environment, and also, we learned how much should we use from energy, how to keep the water safe, how to prevent from air pollution, and these things. These are so interesting for me.
Fatima
My favorite subjects— actually, I love all of them, but my favorite one is science subjects. Yeah.
Hadia
I would really love to be in the biology class, and I was so happy about it.
Gulamiz
My school was— it was like the teachers were like my family. We had male teachers who taught us, and we were so much free, and we had so much fun.
Stella Tan
Did you have a dream job? Like, did you have something that you imagined yourself doing after graduating?
Fatima
I want to be a researcher in physics.
Gulamiz
So I wanted to be a scientist.
Mariam
H.R. manager or finance manager, maybe C.E.O. of an organization, and to initiate the first recycling company in Afghanistan. And I knew that this idea would rock.
[Laughter]
Muneera
I really want to be like Vincent van Gogh, I think. Yeah, I just want to be like great artist, and my name will be in the history books.
Shukran
I definitely want to be a journalist.
Zohra
Computer engineering.
Mahboba
I'm going to be perfect at mathematics.
Shukran
Yeah, I really like history.
Fariba
I want to be a doctor, especially a cancer researcher.
Omelbanin
I want to be a politician in the future. Some people say I have a leadership personality.
Sonya
Even though that I will take a job, and I will share my salary with my family. Also, I will buy many things for myself. But everything becomes so bad, and I'm so sad about that.
But what to say? I mean, I don't know what to say. It happened. It was a bad dream that happened.
Lynsea Garrison
So take me to the time that the Taliban was advancing in the country and approached Kabul. Like, do you remember those days and those moments? What you were feeling?
Muneera
Well, yeah. I clearly remember that day.
Gulamiz
Yes, I can— I cannot forget.
Zohra
I remember that day. It was— I think it was 15 of August in 2021.
Muneera
It was a Sunday.
Gulamiz
That day, on the 15th of August, I went to the bank. And my mother said that they say the Taliban are here. And I was, what? This is not possible! And she said, cover yourself up.
And that was the first day that I wear a burka. It was from my mother, and she said that she wore that when she was living under the Taliban control. I was— I wore that for the first day, and it was like a chain around me.
Mariam
When they came to Kabul, I was at my office. Our head called me to come. He told me that you have to go to home. So I told him, why? He told me, the situation is not good for you.
I had my little brother with me, and we were going on the street, and shops were closed. The street was crowded. Why? Because the people that went to the job that morning were coming back, all of them.
And then, when I was going, they looked at me weird, because they were all men. And they told me, girl, Taliban is in our town. Go back home.
Sonya
In one day, the streets were fully crowd. Believe me. Even I thought it is the doomsday. And it was something so surprising to me. In one day, Afghanistan will change.
Muneera
It was really a nightmare for us that day, mainly for our girls in Afghanistan.
Gulamiz
After 15th of August, I couldn't sleep for five other days.
There were so much coming into my mind. The first that was coming to my mind— like, what will happen to me? And the second thing was, how should I protect my family if war begins? And then, like, what if I cannot go to school?
Sonya
I was thinking that in this moment, what should we do? Where should we go?
Muneera
What's going to happen?
Mariam
Can I join my class again or not?
Gulamiz
And what if I cannot start my university? What if I cannot go out of the home?
Muneera
What will be our future?
Sonya
And how can we continue our life?
Mariam
After, I think, in one or two days of this situation, I went to university. We had a group chat, our classmates on WhatsApp. So I told them that we have to go, all girls, to show them that we are not afraid of you. We just want to study.
It was around 5:00 or 5:30 PM. I went in front of the door of university. The Taliban showed me that, where do you want to go? Hello, girl, where do you want to go?
I told him that this time is my class time. I have to go and join this class. They told me that now is not your time. You don't have to come in this time, because you're a girl.
I said to him, why do you feel like this? I have this right to come and learn and study my studies. They say, you have to go now, and they show me their guns. OK, then I really was afraid, and I left there. So after that, I left my university.
Lynsea Garrison
Can you tell me why you went back? Did you go back just to see if your class was still there?
Mariam
Yes, but when I saw my classmates, boys, it was really painful to see that boys, your classmates, all can go to join the class, but because you are a girl, you don't have the permission to go and join the class. It was really painful for me. I lost everything, every hope, every dream that I had. I lost my all hopes. And you know, when I come to home, all day, all day, I cried, for one week or two weeks.
[Crying]
Lynsea Garrison
I'm sorry.
Mariam
I'm really sorry. I feel really emotional.
Lynsea Garrison
Yeah, it's—
Mariam
It was really hard.
Lynsea Garrison
Yeah.
Mariam
I know it is really hard to someone tell you you don't have to study. You don't have to work. You should be in home, and work daily home works, and you don't need to have dreams for your future.
You just have to get married. You have to give birth to child, and these things, it's really hard. The dreams that we had, not only me— all the girls in Afghanistan. The dreams that we all had all is— now, all is— it's like a dream. Not real.
Lynsea Garrison
Your dreams are like a dream.
Mariam
Yes.
OK. Now, I am fine. I'm really sorry. I'm good now.
Lynsea Garrison
You sure?
Mariam
Yes, yes, I'm OK.
Lynsea Garrison
OK.
Muneera
I don't really know how to express that day. It's really tough, the feeling of that day.
Mariam
After that, I lost my job. I didn't go to university.
Zohra
In the first days, I was— something— I was like a dead body. I didn't move. I didn't eat. And I didn't drink. I was just like a dead body. Nobody knows, what should they do with me.
Muneera
So all of my friends, and me even, was really frightened about going out, and now, just staying in the house. In the house, it was really boring.
Sonya
Actually, it was so boring.
Gulamiz
I had a very big amount of time doing nothing.
Muneera
You have to stay all day in the house, doing nothing.
Lynsea Garrison
What does doing nothing mean for you? Like, what is doing nothing?
Muneera
Well, nothing— in the house, you're just doing the chores, house chores. The works I do a lot is the washing dishes.
Mariam
The thing that I don't like to do is washing the dishes.
Muneera
I wash dishes.
Mariam
It is really hard for me.
Sonya
For example, wash the dishes.
Hadia
Sometimes I cook, sometimes I wash the dishes.
Sonya
Actually, right now, I am washing the dishes. Yeah. I'm so sorry.
Mariam
I also iron the clothes. It is really hard for me.
Shukran
Cooking— especially cooking.
Lynsea Garrison
Are you cooking more in the house, or cooking different things?
Mariam
Yes, too much.
Lynsea Garrison
OK, too much.
Shukran
I try to make some traditional Afghani recipes, like mantu, similar to meat dumplings.
Lynsea Garrison
And are you trying any new recipes or anything different in this time?
Mariam
Yes. Most of them was desserts.
Lynsea Garrison
Oh, OK.
[Laughter]
Muneera
And just cleaning the house, cleaning my bookshelf.
Mariam
When I saw my books, my university chapters, I really lost my hope. And I— I— I lost my hope.
- You know, you're not doing the things that you did in the past. You're just thinking that your future is not the same as your past, or it's worse than that. So it's hard.
F
And just sit next to a window, and watching the outside, the trees. There are big trees, tall trees. I think it's four and five trees. I'm just watching all the trees all day. Because—
Lynsea Garrison
Because?
F
When I see them, I feel sometimes my memories come in front of me like a movie I watch. It's— sometimes I cry when I remember those days, and also these days. When my mom and dad was alive, they always wanted for me to be a doctor. And I also want to be, but now, here is no future.
Lynsea Garrison
Can you tell me what happened to your parents?
F
I think they were killed by Taliban, because my mother is a teacher and always appreciate the girls to study.
Lynsea Garrison
So let me make sure I understand. Because your mom was a teacher, and really advocated for girls to study, that's how she became a target?
F
Because in Afghanistan, a village, the girls are married at very small age, and my mother don't want this, because they must study. And it's also changed my whole life, because when my fathers and mom are killed, at first then, I think that I must study, I must do big things, because they always want for me. But when they say that schools will not be open, it was too difficult for me.
At nights that I can't sleep, I'm just think, think, think, overthinking, and my mind's, like, blowing. Then I go to go away from my sister and brother, and go to a room, I jog. We have a room that is empty. I jog in there.
Lynsea Garrison
Like in circles? Or how do you— how do you do that?
F
Yes, like circles, I jog. It's good for me to jog in a circle. But it's not enough for me. If you just want to know me, just think that you're living in a room that's too small and so dark. And your mind is not working so good. I think that always the room is coming small, small, small, and pushing me. It's— I feel like that, and it's very hard for me.
Lynsea Garrison
Like suffocating you, or coming down on you.
F
Yes, it's like that. I'm just screaming with myself. Is there anybody? Is there anybody? I think there is no one, and I'm losing my hope, living in darkness more and more. There is no light, and like that.
I want to say something. In these days, when sometimes I think I must go away from this life—
Lynsea Garrison
You really don't see a life.
F
I think dying is more better than living. Don't have any soul. Just a body. All days are sleeping, watching the trees, and just again, sleeping, watching the trees, and again, sleeping. Eat, sleep, eat, sleep, eat, sleep. It's not life. Life is different from this.
Mariam
It is just a life that is passing, this day, another day, this day, another day like this. One day like one year.
Muneera
It's been three months from Taliban, 100 days. 100 days, I had nothing to do in my own, or do something beneficial for myself. It was like really depressing, so awful. I just— sometimes I thought of myself then, how you are just using your days?
Fatima
Oh, I was really sad, disappointed. But I decided with myself that it's a difficult situation that has come to you, but don't have to give up.
Zohra
After several months, I find something like a new hope.
Gulamiz
I really managed to fight against Taliban within me.
Fatima
I know that we don't have to give up on our dreams.
Gulamiz
So what I did was, I went to the bookstore, and I grabbed, like, around 12 books. I was planning to read one book for three days.
Fatima
Those books who can provide us some information about discoveries, innovations, about physics—
F
Big wishes from Charles Dickens. I loved his book, and I finished it in one day.
Gulamiz
And I have around six motivational books.
Lynsea Garrison
OK.
Gulamiz
Actually, I really, really am addicted to them. They are from Anthony Robbins, from Robert Kiyosaki. That bookstore was the start of a new thing for me. And I thought that reading books, it would be like a fight.
Muneera
I just enrolled myself in some online courses, like choose French language.
Muneera
Hi, teacher.
Speaker 1
Good morning. Hi there. Hi.
Muneera
I'm really scared to go out, so it was a great opportunity for me as I found out its online courses. So I wasn't worried about anything.
Speaker 1
And this is beginner French. And this is lesson 12.
Muneera
We introduce ourselves. The teacher introduced herself, and it was really going great.
[SPEAKING FRENCH]
Speaker 1
Excellent. That's well done. Yes!
[Laughter]
Zohra
A friend of mine told me that, hey, there is a gym. The day we go to that place and meet the teacher, she taught us Muay Thai.
Stella Tan
Muay Thai? Like boxing?
Zohra
Yes. The first thing is, when I go to the gym, she teaches how to box from right left, right left. After that, right, left, hook. And it was so interesting for me.
Stella Tan
And why was it interesting?
Zohra
It was— it was like a light in a big dark.
Fatima
One thing that's enduring this time was that I made this schedule for myself to spend 30 minutes everyday on doing something new or learning something new.
Lynsea Garrison
You set a goal for yourself that every day for 30 minutes, you would learn something new?
Fatima
Yes. Or I should at least try to learn that. And I did it.
Zohra
These words were in my ears. Right, left, hook, right, left, hook. And at night, when I was asleep, I was repeating that. Right, left, hook.
Fatima
For example, I learned cup song.
Lynsea Garrison
Cup song?
Fatima
Mm-hmm.
Lynsea Garrison
I'm not sure I'm familiar.
Fatima
You make sounds using a cup.
Lynsea Garrison
Is this the one that's like— I'm going to embarrass myself. But the one that goes like— you're going to miss me when I'm gone— and then she does, like, a cup?
Fatima
Yes! You're gonna miss me— yes!
Archived Recording (Singing)
You're going to miss me when I'm gone.
[Laughter]
Fatima
Cup song took me four days of practice, and then I started another skill. I learned tie-dye.
Lynsea Garrison
Tie-dye?
Fatima
I also practiced public speaking. I was improving my listening rhythm this time, tried to learn some new programs of computer, and also improved my painting.
Zohra
And when there were nobody in my home, I started to exercise with my pillow. Right, left, hook, right, left, hook.
Gulamiz
So one thing is like, we do dance classes.
Stella Tan
Dance classes.
Gulamiz
So we are around eight girls, and we gathered together in my house. We're dancing hip hop.
Stella Tan
Oh!
Gulamiz
I usually select American songs, and sometimes Spanish songs.
Stella Tan
OK.
Gulamiz
"Despacito" has a very good rhythm.
Stella Tan
Uh-huh.
Gulamiz
Despacito.
[Music - Luis Fonsi, "Despacito"]
[Laughter]
[SINGING IN SPANISH]
Lynsea Garrison
So how many new skills do you think you've picked up? I mean, it's been quite a while that you haven't been in school.
Fatima
There were many.
Zohra
Right, left, hook, right, left, hook.
Fatima
And also, it continues like this. Whenever I learn the new skill, I go to another one.
Zohra
Right, left, hook, right, left, hook. When I am walking to the gym. I feel powerful. I feel right now, I have a hobby. I have a target. I have a goal to, again, try. Right, left, hook. People think that girls are weak. But I want to show them that girls are not weak, mentally or physical. They are not weak. They can do whatever they want. Right, left, hook, right, left, hook, right, left, hook.
Speaker 2
So if there aren't any other questions, we're going to do a stretch, and then we will conclude our lesson. So for today, what I have selected is Giacomo Puccini, "O mio babbino caro," and that means, "Oh, my dear daddy," in Italian. So you ready?
[Music Plays Briefly]
Ooh! Everyone just adjust your volume if you need to. I'm just going to start playing music now. OK?
Speaker 3
OK.
Speaker 2
OK, everybody's ready. OK, here we go. So breathe in deeply through the nose.
[Music]
Out through the mouth. And we roll our neck clockwise, and then counterclockwise. Twice. So breathe in.
Gulamiz
I'm still scared. I still have so much fear to go to the street. I still managed to stay at home as long as possible.
Speaker 2
And then, the other way.
Gulamiz
When I'm sitting here alone sometimes, I feel that there's like a hopeless me inside me that tries to give up, that is really tired of this situation. But I still have a deep hope in me, and I try to kill the person inside me who is hopeless.
Speaker 2
So how is everyone doing? Do you have any questions about today's lesson? Any comments before we go? We've got six minutes left.
Speaker 3
No, teacher.
Speaker 4
No, teacher. I don't have any question.
Speaker 2
OK.
Speaker 3
Thank you, teacher.
Speaker 2
You're welcome, everyone. You have a good day. Take care.
Speaker 3
Have a good day.
Speaker 4
Au revoir.
Speaker 2
Au revoir! Au revoir.
Speaker 3
Au revoir.
Speaker 4
Au revoir.
Speaker 2
Au revoir.
Speaker 3
Au revoir.
Sabrina Tavernise
We'll be right back.
[Phone Ringing]
Gulamiz
Hello?
Stella Tan
Hello? GulAmiz?
Gulamiz
Hello, how are you?
Stella Tan
I'm doing well. Thank you. So it's been seven months, and the Taliban, as you know, is now reopening universities. And so I just wanted to check in on how you're feeling and whether you're planning on going.
Gulamiz
Well, to be honest, I'm not planning to go to Afghanistan universities anymore, any of them.
Stella Tan
And why not?
Gulamiz
Well, the reason is because what you see in the university campus is way different than what we experienced before.
Muneera
So first of all, they banned music.
Gulamiz
The classes have separated.
Muneera
And also, the students of sculpture-making, they can't make sculpture.
Gulamiz
Girls cannot enter the university without being covered in a hijab, and—
Fatima
Also, Taliban members are putting their own employees instead of old teachers.
Mariam
Do you know Quran? Our holy book?
Lynsea Garrison
Oh, yes.
Mariam
Yes. And we will study this and the rules of Islam.
Gulamiz
And it feels like you are studying in a university that is not teaching students, but they are teaching soldiers.
Muneera
And in painting part, the students are not allowed to do portraits. It means the face, the humans, and animals. So all they could do is to do a drawing and painting of nature.
Gulamiz
There are Taliban flags everywhere, everywhere in the university.
Fatima
And in academic places like universities, they enter with guns.
Gulamiz
Unfortunately, because the Taliban are there, girls are not feeling safe.
Fatima
It's not normal. So many of the students cannot study in this kind of condition.
Lynsea Garrison
You told me when we first spoke, you told me you wanted to be a great artist, like you wanted to be like Vincent van Gogh, or to pursue your art dreams. Do you— do you still want to be that?
Muneera
Well, I don't know, but up to now, I'm just doing my drawing. Like, I follow the drawing my lessons. But I don't know if I want to become an artist anymore.
Lynsea Garrison
Do you miss painting?
Muneera
Oh, well, yeah. Yeah, I just miss the colors. I really like colorful things.
When I just went to university, I wore colorful clothes. It really gave me energy. Yellow, red, green. They are looking so great in painting or in clothes.
But when I just go out, I just wear some black thing to not get attention of others or the Taliban. So it's like a little weird for me now. I really miss everything, every past thing.
And in university, there is lots of really beautiful paintings. So I really like to just see them and watching the paintings.
Lynsea Garrison
Are there a couple that you're thinking of?
Muneera
Well, there is a painting from a war that the leader of the war was a woman, and there was people just around her. And she was standing, and in her hand, it was a flag of Afghanistan. It was a really amazing painting.
Mariam
All of those days, I miss all minutes of those days. Like whenever I'm away, when I went to university or school, our environment, our teachers, the studies that we had, our classmates, the memories, every minute— I really miss them, second and minutes of those days.
Lynsea Garrison
Mmm. And right now, do you think you'll get those minutes back? Do you think you'll ever get to return to university the way it was?
Mariam
No. I don't think so that we can again find those days back.
Stella Tan
I'm wondering, Gulamiz, if you think back over the past few months, have the experiences of the past few months changed you as a person or changed your personality in some way?
Gulamiz
Mm, yes, actually. So the year that just we finished changed me in a way that I never imagined to be changed. Like, I think during one year, I've just grown up to five years.
Stella Tan
Mm.
Gulamiz
And I feel like an old lady now. It's sad.
Lynsea Garrison
You said you said at the beginning of this conversation, like your dreams feel like dreams now. And I'm just wondering right now, are you waiting on those dreams still, or are you trying to make new dreams?
Mariam
Mm.
Those dreams was very special for me. That dreams that I had, I lost. But actually, I hope that those days, those dreams become real. I have hope. If a percent— I am hopeful a person. But 99 percent, I am not hopeful. I'm not hopeful for those dreams that it will be real.
Lynsea Garrison
It's like your 99 percent self is saying to you, your dreams are just dreams.
Mariam
Yes.
Lynsea Garrison
Let them go. And your 1 percent self is saying, no, my dreams are still my reality.
Mariam
Yes.
Lynsea Garrison
So there's a fight happening inside of you.
Mariam
Exactly. Exactly.
Whenever I see someone that lost their hope, so I want to make it hopeful, make the situation for her hopeful. I want to show them that we can do this. We are not those women that they were 20 years ago. We are the new generation, so we have to stand in front of all these Taliban.
But in this situation, it is very hard. But we have to do for our future, this. We should try our best to change the situation by studying, by learning, so it will be maybe possible. And let's see what will be happen.
Lynsea Garrison
Do you believe that yourself?
Mariam
I want to believe. But don't know what will be our future. But we have a little bit hope for our future. A little bit.
We don't have any other way. We have to be strong. We must be strong.
Sabrina Tavernise
This week, the Taliban's Education Ministry planned to reopen schools to girls in grades 6 through 12 with a revised curriculum and classes divided by gender. But on Wednesday, those plans were abruptly canceled without a scheduled reopening.
